topic Re: Help Interleaving in Archive

Help Interleaving

Darryl87 — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 15:58:33 GMT

Hi ok,

For the past 10 years with several providers i have acheived between 10-15ms with Fast path, I started my service on the 3rd Febuary and was acheiving 12ms last hop to bbc.co.uk. A trace from my previous provider,

1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms 192.168.0.1
2    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms 188.39.0.30
3     9 ms    10 ms    10 ms gi1-8.the.dist.dsl.enta.net [188.39.0.29]
4    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms te2-2.telehouse-east3.dsl.enta.net [78.33.141.81
]
5    24 ms    10 ms    10 ms te5-2.telehouse-east.core.enta.net [62.249.192.1
21]
6    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms te5-1.telehouse-east2.core.enta.net [87.127.236.
98]
7     9 ms    10 ms    10 ms 212.58.238.177
8    10 ms    10 ms     9 ms 212.58.238.153
9    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms virtual-vip.thdo.bbc.co.uk [212.58.224.138]

A few days later the interleaving got kicked on and i was told to wait 10 days for the training period to stop to remove it, So i waited and on the 14th i then asked for it to be removed... And eventually they told me they sent an order to get it removed.

48 hours later i am still seeing the increased ping from the interleaving and have been told it has been removed from my line, Below are stats showing that interleaving is still on.

Status: ShowtimeRetrain Reason:   8000
Channel: INTR, Upstream rate = 960 Kbps, Downstream rate = 7296 Kbps
Mode:           G.DMT
Channel:       Interleave
Trellis:       ON
Line Status:       No Defect
Training Status:   Showtime
       Down       Up
SNR (dB):   6.6       7.0
Attn(dB):   43.0       26.5
Pwr(dBm):   19.8       12.7
Max(Kbps):   7872       1136
Rate (Kbps):   7296       960
           G.dmt framing
K:       229(0)       31
R:       16       8
S:       1       4
😧       32       4
           ADSL2 framing
MSGc:       59       10
B:       120       46
M:       1       4
T:       2       3
R:       10       4
S:       0.4962       5.9076
L:       2112       260
😧       64       4
           Counters
SF:       4837       4777
SFErr:       0       0
RS:       328946       81209
RSCorr:       80       0
RSUnCorr:   0       0

HEC:       0       0
OCD:       0       0
LCD:       0       0
Total Cells:   1415545       0
Data Cells:   542       0
Drop Cells:   0
Bit Errors:   0       0

ES:       3       0
SES:       0       0
UAS:       96       0
AS:       83

INP:       1.21       0.24
PER:       16.12       17.72
delay:       7.93       5.90
OR:       32.24       7.22

Bitswap:   0       0

Strange enough i thought id try adsl2+ mode out to test so i did...

Status: ShowtimeRetrain Reason:   8000
Channel: FAST, Upstream rate = 1011 Kbps, Downstream rate = 7770 Kbps
Mode:           ADSL2+
Channel:       Fast
Trellis:       U:ON /D:ON
Line Status:       No Defect
Training Status:   Showtime

I am currently connected with adsl2+ and i am seeing,

Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [212.58.224.138]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms 192.168.0.1
2    19 ms    19 ms    19 ms 217.32.141.34
3    21 ms    21 ms    22 ms 217.32.141.62
4    22 ms    22 ms    21 ms 213.120.161.50
5    22 ms    22 ms    22 ms 217.41.222.50
6    22 ms    21 ms    22 ms 217.41.222.182
7    22 ms    22 ms    21 ms acc2-10GigE-0-0-0-4.bm.21cn-ipp.bt.net [109.159.
248.194]
8    28 ms    28 ms    27 ms core1-te-0-2-5-0.ilford.ukcore.bt.net [109.159.2
48.128]
9    27 ms    27 ms    27 ms core1-pos9-1.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net [194.74.65.
114]
10   228 ms   223 ms   219 ms 194.74.65.42
11    27 ms    28 ms    27 ms 212.58.238.153
12    28 ms    27 ms    27 ms virtual-vip.thdo.bbc.co.uk [212.58.224.138]

The trace from g.dmt currently shows,

1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms 192.168.0.1
2    13 ms    13 ms    12 ms 217.32.141.34
3    14 ms    13 ms    14 ms 217.32.141.62
4    15 ms    15 ms    15 ms 213.120.161.50
5    15 ms    15 ms    15 ms 217.41.222.46
6    16 ms    15 ms    15 ms 217.41.222.182
7    16 ms    15 ms    16 ms acc2-10GigE-0-7-0-4.bm.21cn-ipp.bt.net [109.159.
248.198]
8    21 ms    20 ms    20 ms core1-te-0-13-0-4.ilford.ukcore.bt.net [109.159.
248.136]
9    21 ms    21 ms    20 ms core1-pos9-0.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net [62.6.201.1
18]
10    21 ms    21 ms    21 ms 194.74.65.42
11    20 ms    21 ms    21 ms 212.58.238.129
12    20 ms    20 ms    20 ms virtual-vip.thdo.bbc.co.uk [212.58.224.138]

When i first started the service these pings were -10ms as what they are now, Im running around in circles what am i supposed to do, My end still showing interleaving but they say its off and are now blaming me?

More stats from the modem,

System Status                           System Uptime: 23:5:24
Primary   Secondary
LAN Status                           Primary DNS:   195.74.113.58   Secondary DNS:   195.74.113.62
IP Address   TX Packets   RX Packets
192.168.2.1   1138827       1145082
WAN 1 Status
Enable   Line   Name   Mode   Up Time
Yes       SDSLADSLEthernet       PPPoA   00:00:00
IP   GW IP   TX Packets   TX Rate(Bps)   RX Packets   RX Rate(Bps)
---   ---             0                  0       0                    0
Message [ PPP Shutdown ]
WAN 2 Status
Enable   Line   Name   Mode   Up Time
Yes       Ethernet       ---   00:00:00
IP       GW IP   TX Packets   TX Rate(Bps)   RX Packets   RX Rate(Bps)
---   ---                     0             0       0                0
SDSLADSL Information       ( SDSLADSL Firmware Version: 332201_A)
ATM Statistics   TX Cells           RX Cells   TX CRC errs   RX CRC errs
                        246594       33206010   203              150
SDSLADSL Status   Mode   State   Up Speed   Down Speed   SNR Margin   Loop Att.
   G.DMT       SHOWTIME   1152000       6912000       6       42

Am i right in thinking if it was off then i wont see the errors above? Since interleaving is error correcting and if it was indeed off then these would show as 0 as they did with my last provider...

System Status       System Uptime: 498:11:2
Primary   Secondary
LAN Status   Primary DNS:   194.74.65.69   Secondary DNS:   74.82.42.42
IP Address   TX Packets   RX Packets
192.168.2.1   16478663   11423677
WAN 1 Status
Enable   Line   Name   Mode   Up Time
Yes   SDSLADSLEthernet       PPPoA   00:00:00
IP   GW IP   TX Packets   TX Rate(Bps)   RX Packets   RX Rate(Bps)
---   ---                0                   0                 0                0
Message [ PPP Shutdown ]
WAN 2 Status
Enable   Line   Name   Mode   Up Time
Yes   Ethernet       ---   00:00:00
IP   GW IP   TX Packets   TX Rate(Bps)   RX Packets   RX Rate(Bps)
---   ---               0   0                    0                    0
SDSLADSL Information       ( SDSLADSL Firmware Version: 332201_A)
ATM Statistics   TX Cells   RX Cells        TX CRC errs   RX CRC errs
                       9521188   301313422   0                 0
SDSLADSL Status   Mode   State   Up Speed   Down Speed   SNR Margin   Loop Att.
   G.DMT   SHOWTIME   896000   6304000   8   44

Sorry for the long post but im getting really frustrated trying to resolve this and im not getting anywhere, I appreciate your replies and any advice given.

Regards
Darryl Williams

Re: Help Interleaving

Darryl87 — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:08:08 GMT

Another freshly done trace currently on g.dmt

1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms 192.168.0.1
2    16 ms    16 ms    16 ms 217.32.141.34
3    18 ms    17 ms    17 ms 217.32.141.78
4    20 ms    19 ms    18 ms 213.120.161.50
5    22 ms    19 ms    19 ms 217.41.222.58
6    19 ms    19 ms    19 ms 217.41.222.182
7    19 ms    19 ms    19 ms acc2-10GigE-0-5-0-6.bm.21cn-ipp.bt.net [109.159.
248.228]
8    24 ms    23 ms    24 ms 109.159.248.132
9    24 ms    25 ms    24 ms core1-pos9-0.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net [62.6.201.1
18]
10    26 ms    24 ms    24 ms 194.74.65.42
11    25 ms    25 ms    24 ms 212.58.238.153
12    25 ms    25 ms    25 ms virtual-vip.thdo.bbc.co.uk [212.58.224.138]

So sometimes it ends in 20s like my previous post and sometimes 25's

Re: Help Interleaving

MalcolmW — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 05:50:08 GMT

Hi Barryl87, interleaving is either on or off and is used to help with the stabilisation and noise reduction of DSL connection on longer lines. This is turned on as default on almost all connections to broadband in the uk.

I can see no problem with the ping times you posted as the time is actually very good. Your connection stats are very good and sync rate is also very good. You have some errors in the logs but not too many.

I am a little confused as to what is actually the problem? can you please explain?

Regards

Mal

Re: Help Interleaving

Darryl87 — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 06:48:27 GMT

Just to be clear i started the service on the 3rd and interleaving was off and the ping times were 10ms-12ms a few days later the interleaving kicked in so i jumped to 25ms, I then asked for it to be removed and am getting told that it is indeed off but im still seeing the same 25ms ping that i did when it came on.

It is still showing as on from my end but they say its off and are now blaming my end... What am i supposed to do?

Cheers

Darryl

Re: Help Interleaving

MalcolmW — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 19:18:50 GMT

Hi Barryl87, do you use your broadband for online gaming?

Your post shows that Interleaving is indeed still on for your ADSL. If a request was sent to BTWS to have it switched off then that is what should have happened. A note to make though is that interleaving when on is controlled by DLM which is a software algorithm that continually monitors the line for any errors. DLM will determine whether interleaving and error correction should be on or off and in most cases should be left to do its work without interference. DLM Automatically adjusts line parameters to maintain stability.

Effectively if you turn off interleaving then you may experience reduced stability on your connection. However as I said before if you requested it to be turned off then that is what should happen. But, you should understand what may happen if you do turn it off.

The only thing you can do is contact us and re request that interleaving be turned off.

Before you do, a word regarding your connection! have you connected your filter to the BT Test socket? Read this Article

After reading that article and you have tested from the main bt test socket you still feel that interleaving should be switched off then use the contact us link above.

Regards

Mal

Re: Help Interleaving

Darryl87 — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 06:16:29 GMT

Finally someone with a bit of sense all i got from the live support was its off and it must be my end... My recent errors from the modem are very low now i had only 18 RX CRC errors in 38 hours my line is good and ive always had it off without trouble, Thanks for confirming that it was on ill contact you later.

Cheers
Darryl

Re: Help Interleaving

Darryl87 — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 08:44:59 GMT

Had a word with live support again and they are now confirming from BT Wholesale that its also off from their end, So what am i supposed to do its clearly not off and i cant do anything about it.

Is it possible to move from the business broadband to the home side of it and hopefully ill get more luck there? Another up to date trace to confirm,

1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms 192.168.0.1
2    21 ms    20 ms    21 ms 217.32.141.34
3    22 ms    21 ms    21 ms 217.32.141.62
4    23 ms    24 ms    23 ms 213.120.161.50
5    24 ms    23 ms    23 ms 217.41.222.62
6    24 ms    23 ms    24 ms 217.41.222.182
7    24 ms    23 ms    23 ms acc2-10GigE-0-7-0-4.bm.21cn-ipp.bt.net [109.159.
248.198]
8    29 ms    29 ms    29 ms core1-te-0-13-0-4.ilford.ukcore.bt.net [109.159.
248.136]
9    29 ms    28 ms    28 ms core1-pos9-1.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net [194.74.65.
114]
10   161 ms   218 ms   217 ms 194.74.65.42
11    29 ms    29 ms    31 ms 212.58.238.129
12    29 ms    29 ms    29 ms virtual-vip.thdo.bbc.co.uk [212.58.224.138]

Re: Help Interleaving

a-hill — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 10:37:28 GMT

Hi Darryl,

I've had this escalated for you to see about getting interleaving turned off, it's possible this won't be done till monday afternoon though I'm afraid.

Re: Help Interleaving

Darryl87 — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 15:08:30 GMT

So can you actually see its on? If so why do the people at live support keep saying that its off?

Re: Help Interleaving

Darryl87 — Mon, 21 Feb 2011 08:19:15 GMT

Any news on this?

Cheers
Darryl

Re: Help Interleaving

a-hill — Mon, 21 Feb 2011 08:34:49 GMT

All indications when testing did actually appear to show that interleaving was disabled. I'm having them ensure that it's disabled across the system... again this is potentially this afternoon.

Re: Help Interleaving

Darryl87 — Mon, 21 Feb 2011 10:14:43 GMT

You know when you reconnect the internet, Like i said previously the ping sometimes is 5ms higher or lower, Would it not be possible to connect to a certain one that provides the best instead of it being random?

Also does the Home BT broadband provide better pings than the Business? Ive been told that its LLU and the Business isnt?

Cheers
Darryl

Re: Help Interleaving

a-hill — Mon, 21 Feb 2011 10:35:21 GMT

I'm guessing you're referring to IP. An IP is an IP, there's no fast or slow ones... they all do the same job. You also have to remember that response time to servers is also down to the servers themselves, the route to them can also change, and so could their response time... you're only as fast as your slowest hop. I can only assume this is online gaming related?

Re: Help Interleaving

Darryl87 — Mon, 21 Feb 2011 10:46:39 GMT

For example when i trace bbc.co.uk sometimes the end hop will be 20 other times it was 25 and when it was 20 throughout the trace was also 5 lower so i was on a faster route would it not be possible to always have the same route?

Also about the Home question what about that? My mate who lives local gets 3-4 lower on it so i guess that would apply to me as well?

Cheers
Darryl

Re: Help Interleaving

a-hill — Mon, 21 Feb 2011 11:43:33 GMT

It's all completely ISP dependant, I couldn't comment on the residential side. But 3 to 4ms is practically unnoticeable, especially with regards to online gaming. With a traceroute, we only take you so far before you're set loose and it's up to the net/DNS, servers etc to get you to the right place. It's all a case of load balancing etc, there's no way we can set a connection to take the exact same route every time as we simply don't have the power to do so. Again I'm just assuming this is online gaming related, if it is, is it PC gaming or console?

Re: Help Interleaving

Darryl87 — Mon, 21 Feb 2011 12:01:57 GMT

Yes online and for the PC ive had 10 before with other providers so i know it is possible to get it, Can you not do anything else to get it lower, Or can i do anything?

Cheers
Darryl

Re: Help Interleaving

a-hill — Mon, 21 Feb 2011 12:28:51 GMT

Beyond ensuring interleaving is disabled, there isn't really much that can be done by either of us. I've had similar issues with increased ping in the likes of Quake Live, that was due to the game going from beta to full release, and the increased player count via the master server was pushing it up slightly. They had moved to larger servers which meant slightly more overheads, wasn't really anything any of us could do.

Re: Help Interleaving

Darryl87 — Tue, 22 Feb 2011 07:38:47 GMT

Ok its finally turned off, But as i trace the server that i go in look below.

1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms 192.168.0.1
2     5 ms     5 ms     4 ms 217.32.141.34
3     6 ms     6 ms     6 ms 217.32.141.62
4     8 ms     8 ms     7 ms 213.120.161.50
5     7 ms     7 ms     7 ms 217.41.222.62
6     7 ms     8 ms     8 ms 217.41.222.182
7     7 ms     7 ms     8 ms acc2-10GigE-0-1-0-5.bm.21cn-ipp.bt.net [109.159.
248.218]
8    11 ms    11 ms    11 ms core2-te-0-13-0-4.ealing.ukcore.bt.net [109.159.
248.138]
9    23 ms    12 ms    12 ms core1-xe10-1-0.redbus.ukcore.bt.net [62.6.200.89
]
10    13 ms    13 ms    13 ms te8-4.core1.thn.as20860.net [195.66.224.207]
11    14 ms    22 ms    14 ms 62-233-127-174.as20860.net [62.233.127.174]
12    14 ms    14 ms    14 ms service8697.lrc-networks.co.uk [78.129.197.65]

Usually on my old provider it doesnt jump up so much like this, Ive also noticed that they start very low where my friend local to me has the same number throughout where mine starts low and slowly rises.

I usually start with 10 and end with it like he does, So i guess if i went to the home broadband i would be the same since they use different systems? Would it be possible for you to find out for me mate?

Cheers
Darryl

Re: Help Interleaving

Darryl87 — Tue, 22 Feb 2011 07:40:17 GMT

My old provider produced these pings morning to night didnt matter, Still used a BT line wasnt llu or anything.

1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms 192.168.0.1
2    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms 188.39.0.30
3     9 ms    10 ms    10 ms gi1-8.the.dist.dsl.enta.net [188.39.0.29]
4    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms te2-2.telehouse-east3.dsl.enta.net [78.33.141.81
]
5    24 ms    10 ms    10 ms te5-2.telehouse-east.core.enta.net [62.249.192.1
21]
6    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms te5-1.telehouse-east2.core.enta.net [87.127.236.
98]
7     9 ms    10 ms    10 ms 212.58.238.177
8    10 ms    10 ms     9 ms 212.58.238.153
9    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms virtual-vip.thdo.bbc.co.uk [212.58.224.138]

Re: Help Interleaving

a-hill — Tue, 22 Feb 2011 08:29:29 GMT

Your old provider was using the Entanet network that will have fewer users than the BT wholesale network. I know you think that 4ms is 'a jump', but it certainly isn't even remotely high and would be considered a premium connection to game servers (living in Scotland, 14-20ms would be heaven :P). I believe most Entanet based ISP's have fastpath in place to give the shortest route to a server, I don't believe residential supply this so you may see comparative results as to what you're seeing here... there's just no way to guarantee that it would be better.